Cool Cleveland Interview
Nick Kostis, Owner of Pickwick & Frolic

"I am a Cleveland retread, rerouted somehow," he laughs, thinking about first traveling to Cleveland for a Greek Convention with his family and later for some higher educational experiences. "I just love the city. There is so much about it that is familiar at once and comfortable." He's the antithesis of, say, George Steinbrenner. He sees Cleveland as a wealth of heartfelt sophistication, not just a punching bag or the punchline to some really bad jokes.

Did I already say it's easy to get Kostis fired up? I like getting him fired up.

He tends to get others around him fired up, too. He loves talking about the history of Short Vincent and the fact that Pickwick & Frolic’s building is constructed on the former site of the Euclid Avenue Opera House, which was demolished in 1921. His eyes glint at the thought that the Opera House was once the premiere performance hall in the country and once boasted the nation's largest gas burning chandeliers "with 325 gas burning jets"... and that the exterior walls to the P&F main performance stage are those very same Opera House walls.

He'll tell you there are spirits in those walls. He'll insist you to try the calamari.

Over the course of a recent interview with Cool Cleveland, both Kostis and I agreed (after close to two hours of conversation) that Greeks and Irish-Armenians alike must have a fondness for "convivality" -- the buzzword he regards as key to his staff culture. It's the motto for enjoying feasting, drinking and being in good company of family and friends.

But this isn't about me, dear readers. This is about guy who just might have the Golden Touch. It's about an idea that has sparked a mini-revolution where there used to be a run-down Wendy's, some small niche shops and a scrappy alley right out of a Hollywood action-flick fight scene. Now, it's a premiere entertainment destination on the Euclid Corridor.

Kostis knows the business. He's the catalyst for Pickwick & Frolic, which houses his Hilarities Fourth Street Theatre comedy club. That club has itself been the catalyst for a whole host of development in the surrounding area. But he's got something of a Golden Touch, too. He opened his original Hilarities in 1985 in Cuyahoga Falls, with a second location in the Warehouse District in 1986. Have you been down to the Warehouse District lately? Can anyone say hotbed? What's more, his comedic endeavors spent some time on Playhouse Square before it experienced a renaissance of its own. It's like a Sixth Sense, or something.

Reading through all the history and reflections of the early days at Hilarities, and his views and opinions about our city, was all I needed to get fired up myself. I had to talk to him. Here's how our recent Cool Cleveland exchange went:

Cool Cleveland: Joe Cimperman calls you the "Mayor of East Fourth Street." How does that strike you? At the end of the day, it seems perfectly fitting to me. Leadership has made this place... it's a beautiful miracle and it's inspiring others to go and do likewise.

Nick Kostis: Well, thank you. That is certainly a flattering thing to hear, but I am not sure it fits entirely. (laughs)

In the real world, this (motions around the theatre box we're sitting in) is not supposed to happen. Today’s world is a tough market and the fact that Pickwick & Frolic has happened can be primarily attributed to a belief and commitment to the idea that this city is still an attraction. This project was not supported by government funds and low-interest loans and the like. This was done with hard-earned dollars and somehow has emerged in a tough economy. But for the help of strangers, this is something that might not have happened.

I definitely want to get back to the financial side of things in a moment. Back in the day, Short Vincent was the big entertainment district in Cleveland. That’s where the original Frolic Show Bar and the Pickwick Restaurant was. Many of the name entertainers were featured there from the late 40s through part of the 60s. Do you see East Fourth as a renaissance of that time period?

I’m not going to say a full-blown renaissance or revival because that simply gives us too much credit. Coming downtown for something that is exemplary and unique and not mediocre was always the goal. And I realize that might sound all Pollyanna, but that was the true spirit behind the Pickwick & Frolic project from the word "go." This is Don Quixote chasing the windmill. (laughs) And at the same time, it's also Pancho Villa trying to keep my feet on the ground for my investors.

You’re getting me fired up! Our narrative defines our culture. There’s no question that heart was the key to all of what you see around you. There were so many things that inspired it, the Pickwick Restaurant, the Frolic Show Bar, the Roxy Burlesque... and that place next to it called the Little Bar. Places like the Theatrical, which was legendary. There are some photos [of them] that I want you to look at in the box office when we're done... Anyway, we have had ideas and little else. That and a commitment to this city with a thought that might incite some spark of new interest. But we were willing to move the money up on the line to help establish that big picture--

(Kostis' cell phone rings, he answers. A short and heartfelt conversation ensues)

I am sorry. That was one of our employees. You know, working in the restaurant industry, as anyone involved in it will tell you, really is like having a gigantic and committed extended family around you at all times. Restaurants are like a microcosm of society. I have 177 employees and it is hard not to be touched by all of them when you spend so much time with them. Anyway, she’s a good kid, headed off to New York... and I hope she does very well for herself. I think very highly of her.

Your employees all speak pretty highly of you, as well. When I first came in here, I heard "father figure," "mentor" and "spiritual guide" from the first three employees I talked to...

(laughs) Well, that's a great thing. I am humbled.

You grew up in Brooklyn, New York—one of the cultural epicenters of the entire free world. I walk up East Fourth Street and into Pickwick, or into your neighbors’ establishments; it definitely tastes like a slice of Big Apple to me. Did you feel that same character and intimacy was possible when you first discovered the space?

Without question. It was the first thing that my mind conjured when I walked down that street. It felt like my growing up. I thought it could be an oasis, a different world. It conjured up images for me of those heydays... the intimacy of rubbing shoulders with the unwashed masses and a time where the lines drawn between those [people] in-step and out-of-step with society weren’t quite as clarified as they are today. It was a time when lawyers hung out with gangsters! (laughs) It was a time when all elements of society came into contact with one another and there was a sense of taste, decorum and a clear sense of what was acceptable and what wasn't.

Anyway, it [also] got me to thinking about those images in the box office and the possibility of resurrecting that spirit of Short Vincent as well. To me, more than anything, East Fourth symbolized the images that I had in my head growing up in New York. And the visual imagery of what East Fourth could look like was suddenly and instantly as familiar as my name. Instantly comfortable, much like the city itself.

You have $5 million and five years of your life invested in Pickwick & Frolic. That’s a long time. Does it still feel like Alice in Wonderland, as you once described it during venue’s formative stages?

Every day, although that story did have some uncertainty in that you weren't sure what to expect around every corner. There was some uncertainty, as there is in any business endeavor and certainly the investment of time, emotion and money cannot be underestimated. But these days, it's more like walking through the Looking Glass... you walk into our main showroom and it's like, POW! (laughs) I do like to describe the experience of coming into this space as being a sort of Alice in Wonderland sort of fairy tale. It's just that now the reality is so much larger than the fantasy ever could be. (smiles)

Your neighbors across the street, House of Blues, received millions in tax credits and service upgrades. Did you get similar assistance? (shakes head, "No.") Did you even ask for it? (nods head, "Oh, yes.") Did that change the formula for your project's success, if at all?

I want to say that I am very, very, very -- can you please underscore the word very? -- happy that we have House of Blues as a neighbor. The only way that Cleveland can attract top talent is with a brand like House of Blues and I do not begrudge them at all. And we certainly benefit from them being here, and vice versa. Would I have liked to be the receipient of that kind of assistance? Absolutely. But see, here's the thing: seven years ago... how would you describe this? (motions around the room) I've spent a ton of money advertising what this is and a photo still doesn't seem to capture it. I can't do aerial photos of this 27,000 square feet. (laughs)

People are still awed by what [Pickwick & Frolic] is when they come here. And they all say the same thing: "I had no idea this was here. I heard but I didn't realize!" Until you walk in that door, you have no idea. And there's one more thing I would like to add to that: everything that we did here is exactly what we said we were going to do. Every program is exactly what we wanted and strived for... every bit of architecture, everything. We were committed to a concept and we saw that through. We were able to take this concept to fruition in exactly the way it needed to take place... this is a 100% local effort, supported by local people, about Cleveland and born of Cleveland. And you will not find this anywhere else in the United States. It is original, authentic and unique to us. It's not a national group who came in and said, "Play around with this idea."

How much did the historical district tax credits help?

The historic tax credit was very much a part of our financing and a huge benefit to what we did here. That benefit was inhered to us by our landlord and helped with a lot of renovations to the building that was his. But of course we spent a lot more, a lot more... far exceeded that tax credit. We spent five times what the tax credit was.

Are you seeing audiences build, taper off or stay steady since you opened?

I will say that the audiences themselves are exactly what the culture I was speaking of previously was all about. All-encompassing. I have 80-year-olds come here with their children and young adult grandchildren. And it's fantastic. Our crowds have been building.

What we find is that we are building our base -- modestly, but steadily. We have improved gross every year in the three-plus years we have been here. That's saying a lot, because we opened by ourselves. We weren't even open a year here and they shut down the street for repairs. People were literally climbing over dirt mounds to get to us, so they had to be fairly motivated! (laughs)

We have had to slug it out, though, because we haven't had some big corporation backing us. I will tell you that we have bills and that this has got to succeed. It takes patience and steadfastness because there is huge overhead here. So, this is not a clubhouse we can just close up and go home from. This is life and death, so to speak. A serious business. And while I may be Pollyanna-ish, this is a business and investors are astute business people.

In the 1980s, you got the Warehouse District rebuilding started with Hilarities on West Sixth. What is it that makes this neighborhood and the development in it different?

I originally wanted to open this in the Warehouse District and we were in negotiations to do so... [and thinking] how to design a space for our use at a particular site. They liked the concept and our idea, and we were there because I had a long track record there as a tenant. We didn't end up with the building. Before it was over, I laid out seven different places... even the Halle parking garage, Forest City. But I couldn't find the right situation or circumstance until I ended up here.

The Marons were coming onto the scene, picking up some parcels [downtown] and were looking at this parcel. And it took about a year after that to get to a point after that where we had a lease. These things... you never know which way it will go when you first start out. The moral of the story is, keep going, don't give up... because somehow, you will somehow fit in and everything happens for a reason. Were it not for [Hilarities'] time at the Hanna, we might not have been here when all this stuff started happening from a timing perspective.

Your stint there seemed to help them, too. Now, I understand that the Marons are planning to open Corner Alley (a 16-lane bowling alley and martini bar) near the House of Blues and Hilarities in that old Wendy's storefront. And then there’s Michael Symon with Lola Bistro, and then there's an East Coast-style ultralounge called View. It must be exciting to have more new neighbors.

It is absolutely, Peter. Just as Pickwick & Frolic cannot be an island unto itself, or House of Blues for that matter, we are all stronger together. That is multiplied each time someone new comes in. We are all stronger for that happening. Those "lifestyle centers" are all the rage now, but this could be a lifestyle street in a lifestyle community. It's not so much retail, but it is unique because all of the participants and tenants are originals, one-of-a-kinds. And I know I just intimated that House of Blues is a chain, but it is a one-of-a-kind location and the only one you find between New York and Chicago--

And their space is a one-of-a-kind as well--

Exactly. That's what creates that sense of becoming a more regional destination for people. It's not homogenized. You've got to come here to get it.

Does it bother you to hear people like Crocker Park developer Robert Stark seemingly discount the work that people like yourself and [Ari] Maron are doing in reviving older portions of the existing cityscape?

My view is, with Crocker Park... what can you say that's bad about it? It's beautiful, phenomenal. Same with Legacy [Village]. Who would not want to go there? Then there's Eton. It's attractive and the money is certainly invested well. We in downtown Cleveland have not been the beneficiary of that type of investment, either. What's happening here is solely and independently entrepreneurial, but it is working because it has a common vision of many different people coming together.

What happens [in places like Crocker Park] is that they are creating a city in a field. They are trying gladly and happily create a sense of community in a suburb, but [the effort] is artificial. It's like going to Disneyland, or walking in front of one of those flats on a stage set. You poke a hole through it and there's nothing there.

What does Stark or a Schneider or a Jacobs being to a project? Just one vision, a common goal. Uniformity. A standard. There is one here too, but it is being accomplished in a marriage of developers and entrepreneurs... operators and funders. That doesn't happen in a vaccuum and it's not cookie cutter... (motions around us) These buildings were intended to be what they are, they embody architectural history and substance from a city that inspired an entire region. Our identity. There is no Westlake without Cleveland, and we moved away from the city because we have prospered, or had a fears about it.

We should never forget that this city is the mother of us all. That's the big disconnect. That's the abandoning of self.

How do you feel about “New Urbanism” as an approach to development? Are open air malls disguised as old town centers fooling anybody and do you think that’s an appropriate direction for Cleveland to head in?

I don't think anyone is trying to fool anyone. At the end of the day, everyone is trying to get back to that sense of community. Each approach is different, but their approach is not downtown. It's mainstream, main street... less the artifice of a covered mall. Stark's approach is reality, too. But to me, this is real and there's a genuineness to it.

Are there more risk-takers in Cleveland these days as it relates to development? What is the "number one thing" Cleveland needs to become a destination?

Cleveland has to be a place where the housetops are. Where the density is. We don't have any of that... and we have fewer and fewer people working downtown as well. You have to be an attraction, a residence, a destination and an employer... it's all insurance, one for each of the others. Or othewise, why come downtown? More infrastructure is also going to be a key for success in attracting people back downtown.

As for risk-takers, I think what you people are doing at Cool Cleveland and what Thomas [Mulready] and James [Levin] are doing with Ingenuity [Festival of Art and Technology] is about as impressive as anything I have seen in Cleveland, period. There's a real courage about what you are all doing and I am both encouraged and optimistic. It is my hope that others are as well. It exemplifies the promise that is still here, that is still us, that is still Cleveland.

It's not west side/east side. It's OUR side.

Interview and Photos by Peter Chakerian peterATcoolcleveland.com (:divend:)