CK: Yes, my wife and I are opening a gallery space downtown called Thrive.
CF: Why downtown?
GK: It's like our contribution. We'll try to help breathe art and life into that part of town. The opportunity kept getting better and richer, and we thought maybe we could do something. For most of my time, I'm the artist in isolation making the work, but, with things like [helping define the character of] Cain Park, I think perhaps I can do more. As an individual artist you don't have much of a voice.
CF: Outside of your art you mean?
GK: Yeah.
CF: Concerning lack of empowerment - what needs to change that probably can change?
GK: If you want to work in the town you live in, (as most artists do, since art is a communicative discipline) you can get in your car and shlepp and network and still you are one of hundreds of artists sending out slide packets, videos, etc. The hurdles are steep. Individual grants certainly are helpful. Venues are helpful, but I think the venues don't network with each other enough, in town or regionally/nationally. I don't see one venue saying to an artist, dance group, or theater production "look, I have an acquaintance in New York or Chicago or LA and they should see your stuff." If you have an entrée then the doors can be opened. From that standpoint, they can help an artist's career and an artist is more likely to live here. This is a great place to work and produce art. Cleveland doesn't have to compete with New York or L.A. The art scene here is becoming more vibrant; look at the live/work ordinance.
CF: Do you feel like the arts community is not as healthy as it could be because we haven't pressed for live work space, haven't pressed for collaboration with business? I was at a meeting last week about this project coming down the pike; a group thought about including the arts from the beginning, but they didn't contact the arts community until all the money was attached. Then they bring in a group of arts folk and say, "we really believe art is important and we want the arts and culture central, but we don't have any money so don't talk budget." Years ago I think many would have said "thank you" and done something "for the exposure" but now there is a lot of attitude from the arts community.
GK: It's a cultural priority issue, priorities and society can't be changed overnight; there has to be an education process. Art challenges, and that's not what Americans want. Our culture that we value is based on possessions, land development, and survival. We apply those values even to our leisure time. A person will go out and spend a couple hundred dollars on a concert and dinner or buy an expensive car. But ask 'em to spend a few hundred on a piece of art and it's too much money. So of course companies plan things out and call in the arts last minute. The dialogue is important here in Cleveland. It can shift focus and attention and can shift the subject to be addressed and now through public forum we have this discussion at the table...this is now a subject worthy of discussion. The arts community is getting more voice now, and so there seems to be a ground swell of political support and societal awareness. There's still a certain marginalizing going on, that the artists are going to be another special interest group clamoring for their piece of the pie. So we do things like considering putting the arts with something else on a ballot. Do we take the good with the bad? Often the interesting things in Cleveland happen on the ground level, with no marketing study, no business plan. I bet many times it's fundamentally irrational and people go out and just try it anyway.
CF: You're conjuring up a vision of a great arts-rich environment - do we have enough people to support it? Once we get it started, will the people come? I know one of Mayor Campbell's issues is to get Cleveland up to 500,000. GK: I think there is a cut off for federal funding and it's 500,000. I think the creative community here is pretty powerful. Proportionally, I would compare the artists in Cleveland to anywhere; there's some powerful art being made here by really creative people. When I have guests in town, I could go downtown, but I'm more likely to go to University Circle. Why? Because there's culture there. It's the cultural heart of the city, and that's what makes a city alive. I know they've done studies on economic impact, and consistently found the impact on local economy by cultural institutions is far greater than sports facilities. It doesn't have to be either or, but people should be aware of that and start valuing the arts more.
CF: Whose job is it to make people aware? I saw Tom Mulready the other day and I was looking at the Free Times. He spun it around and looked at the cover and started fussin' me out, "Aw crap...La Bron? James...what about this, what about that, what about the Cleveland Orchestra?" It seems to me the stats you just alluded to are as much urban legend as common knowledge, but the media doesn't seem to hype the arts or try to validate the story as much as it could. GK: Not to slam the media, but they are not in business to be the cultural paragon of the town. They are in the business of selling paper or airtime, their goal is to reach out to the broadest segment of the population.
CF: There's a lot of people who don't watch the news and don't know who Lebron James is and are not captured by what you just said, and don't care if the Browns win or loose. They go to East Cleveland theater, free events, and eat afterward and do all the things that you said many are more likely to do, rather than going to a sporting event.
GK: You can do both or all. It's just that the public shouldn't have the perception of one being so much more relevant than the other.
CF: Should major institutions support local artists? I know CSU and Tri-C have workshops for musicians. Some arts organizations have workshops for visual artists.
GK: I know the [Cleveland] museum [of Art] used to do the May Show and Tom Hinson did the invitational, which was great. But why not go one step further and do a swap with the ABC Museum of Art in the Southwest? We do a biennial of regional arts and we'll show your artists and then travel it to cultural institutions elsewhere. So that Cleveland artists not only show in Cleveland, but also throughout the country. From that standpoint, I think there are some creative things that a museum of this stature can do.
CF: I was preppin' you earlier access for minority artists at Cain Park, and it seemed not that accessible. There's an organization in town that's in Philadelphia this weekend at the Black Arts Expo, and there is a major Black Expo here in Cleveland every May. They're doing a decent job getting local African American artists networking with artists from around the country. GK: In terms of how to tweak that diversity, I don't know. I have a problem with what you just said in terms of a Black art show or a women's art show, etc., etc. I feel art should transcend those things. Where we come from in terms of personal experience and culture and background will inform the art and enrich the art, and art will have more relevance as a consequence. I don't think that political or cultural background should define the show. You can have shows that have those kinds of themes, but it's about the art. It has to transcend those things because it has to speak universally. The work has to speak to the individual as well. However, I think most great art does have that universality of being able to cross boundaries of culture. You tell your friends, spread the word, get them to apply to these shows.
CF: How are you feeling about the whole "creative class" tag? GK: My interpretation is that it is not class as far as hierarchical because he [Richard Florida, who coined the phrase] not only talked about traditional arts people as creative class but also young techies and engineers and ya know, bio-mechanics. I think it's talking about a mindset.
CF: Regarding prospects for public funding for the arts, if you were the HNIC what would you want to see? How do you get there? I'm seeing big organizations that won't get involved in the process, except behind closed doors to say that if you do this for us then we will do such and such; otherwise we are not interested.
GK: In Cleveland, there's the mindset that everything is tooth and claw, only the strong survive...we need to hoard our resources, power base, and screw everybody else. That's not how reality works. It's built on cooperation. I think what makes "Corporate America" work is networking. You can call it the old boy network in terms of country clubs, but there's also the "you scratch my back, I scratch your back, kind of idea; that's what makes things successful. You and I had talked earlier about our trips to New York, and I know I'll go to a gallery and a rep will tell me about an artist and then tell me two other galleries where that artist is showing. Here, they're showing me that artist in that space, but telling me I should go see that artist in two other spaces. They network with each other like crazy. Organizations that host dance productions, musical groups, and all business could do this.
CF: Can we do that?!
GK: If we want to!
CF: George, thanks for your time.
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