Radio Genius and Former WMMS Guru John Gorman
Living Up and Down the Dial... Even Now...

John Gorman began his broadcasting career in Boston. In 1973, he moved to Cleveland to join WMMS, "a small, free-form FM station" then under new ownership. Over the next 13 years, he helped shape "The Buzzard" into one of the most popular and influential rock stations in the entire United States. He’s promoting a new book, called The Buzzard: Inside the Glory Days of WMMS and Cleveland Rock Radio (Gray & Company, Publishers) and will be a featured guest of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame’s "From Songwriters to Soundmen" speaker series this coming Wednesday, April 16 at 7PM.

Rather than dig deep about Gorman’s WMMS memoirs -- which are already written and sure to be talked about at the Rock Hall -- Cool Cleveland Managing Editor Peter Chakerian went in a slightly different direction with his line of questioning in the pair's hometown coffeeshop. Among the topics discussed with the razor-sharp radio mind? Read on…

Cool Cleveland: Thanks for taking the time this morning. Talk about the release of your book The Buzzard back in November. When did you decide to write the WMMS memoir, how long did it take you to go through all of the materials that your assistant Rhonda Kiefer kept? What was your hope for the book on the other side of the process?

John Gorman: Good questions (laughs). Rhonda was my assistant for many, many years and she was as organized in all the ways I wasn’t. I am not an organized person. (laughs) If I file something myself, I am never going to find it. So she was very good keeping up all the details. Files were kept as a record to check something for dates; when a group of us left mms back in the mid 80s, she gave me all the files, which she had done in chronological order. Every file, note, memo… pretty much everything. I had these files for years just sitting in my garage, moved a couple times and regularly asked myself, “What am I doing with these?” I told Rhonda that she needed to write a book, but she kept pushing that back on me. I almost pitched all of those records at one point, and shortly after that, I got a call from David Gray [of Gray & Company, Publishers] and he asked me if I had ever thought about writing about my experience at WMMS. That’s when I decided it had to be done.

There was a motivation behind it beyond that call. There was a part of the history of the station that was subject to some revisionist history by others... and I had been hearing stories back on how [our] history was being rewritten. It was all incorrect, so a drive to correct the history getting out there and being passed around was there as well. Having all that information and reading through it all was an inspiration, so I just started writing. There were a couple of false starts. The book represents my third attempt; the other two weren’t successful in capturing the sprit the station. We had people of all different ages, [Len “Boom”] Goldberg, Murray Saul and young people like Betty [Korvan] and “Matt the Cat.” And to have all of these people come together and forge the biggest station in America? It was a goal we shared collectively and I wanted to answer all the people who asked, ‘What did WMMS do?’ as thoroughly as possible. That first draft ended up being 1500 pages. I couldn’t stop myself. (laughs)

I would imagine that after putting out a memoir like The Buzzard, you’ve been inundated with memories from all across the spectrum -- from talent to fans and all in between.

That's true. The biggest problem really was that I had too much information. It had to be edited down to a reasonable length. I’m glad that the book has done reasonably well and the feedback has been great… hearing other people talk about growing up listening to WMMS, and getting a lot of feedback on that, just made me realize how right was I back then! (laughs) What has been really surprising is the number of young people who are reading the book. They’ve had to be reading their parents copy. When I started getting feedback from 20-somethings who couldn’t remember the station, well, that was great. A lot of them said “This is the greatest marketing book I’ve read.” Those people have referred to The Buzzard as a guerilla marketing book. That spirit coming across is exciting, because it reminds me a lot about the genesis of the dot coms and other current things happening… the Googles, Facebooks and YouTubes have all had that innovativeness and spirit and creativity that existed at WMMS back then. That’s how these recent organizations have attracted other creative people and created a fertile environment: they don’t think in normal ways. They say “Think outside the box,” but there shouldn’t ever be a box to begin with. (laughs) So it pleases me that there is a younger audience reading it, and looking at it as creative marketing. We had to do everything the old fashioned way.

I have to say, The Buzzard is a really fun read – particularly as it relates to all of the on-air talent and the shenanigans that were going on behind the scenes at the station. But to also be as accessible as you were innovative was quite compelling.

We didn’t want to create something that was too cultish. The game plan all along was to be a popular culture format station. Play music; provide the news and information and public affairs. We just wanted to do all of that our own way. We wanted to do our own one-hour public affairs show and not just carry the City Club to meet some quota.

Like I said, there were a couple of false starts, but those were important to me in terms of writing completely in context. I really wanted to capture the group of people I was a part of and the camaraderie we all had. That third time I started the book, I really captured it and then every spare moment I had was spent working on it. The most difficult part was the editing down – there were so many great stories I couldn’t fit in, so I really had to pick the ones that would speak to most people who would be aware of us. I finally got it down to 500 pages and then Tom Feran helped to find ways to pare it down even further. That helped clean up the last 200 or so pages. When I started, I wrote everything out as it happened, with Rhonda’s files helping me to relive all the highs and lows, good and bad. It was a great experience, to literally have notes from every single day in front of me.

In your 13 years in the WMMS helmsman role, was there a pivotal moment where you said to yourself, “This is as good as it gets” and you realized you were making history?

Here’s the interesting thing about it: In 1978, we pulled out a 10th Anniversary out just to say we could get some special things that year. It was strictly a marketing ploy because what we started doing in 1973 was really starting to pay off. We had great ratings. We were the top station in America. We had [Bruce] Springsteen doing our anniversary show. But the good thing was we didn’t believe our own hype. And from there we kept asking how we could top it and not just rest on our laurels. The day after Springsteen, I had to look at it like, “OK, Next?” It reminds me of when the New England Patriots were running that undefeated season last year, with [Bill] Belichick on the sidelines looking like he was in a rotten, terrible mood. And really, he’s just thinking of the next game.

In 1978, downtown Cleveland was falling apart. Stores were closing. The city went into default. Crime was up. It was a terrible time for the region and economically, the country as a whole wasn’t doing much better. I think WMMS provided an upside for people here. Right after the Great Depression, talkies [films] were invented that year, and Technicolor and all of those great movies followed. The Wizard of Oz, Gone With the Wind. And there was the World’s Fair. Entertainment sort of numbs the pain, for lack of better words. In some ways, we were able to lift up the city – even in the shape that it was in –and that really allowed us to be even more creative and innovative. At a time when jobs were lost, plants were closing, the mayor and city council were snarling, Fortune 500's were leaving here in droves… we managed to keep everyone engaged.

One of the very first things I read when I came here from Boston – a city that certainly reinvented itself in the 50s as a city of growth – was about the decline of Cleveland. I read the Cleveland Press story that [the company] Diamond Shamrock was moving. The story was amazing. A representative quoted basically said, “We don’t know where we’re going, we just want out of here.” I thought, “What have I gotten myself into?” (laughs)

People who have paid attention for a long enough period of time can point to deregulation as a deathly blow to terrestrial radio. How come all of these multimedia conglomerates can’t see a statistic like the 35% audience share decline over the last 10 years and not realize they’re responsible for it dying?

When someone is actually willing to buy XM or Sirius satellite radio, get the unit and pay a monthly subscription fee for something that most people are getting for free, it’s because they’re not happy with what they’re getting for free. When deregulation occurred, the smartest [owners] sold at the right time. The stations they owned were worth $3 million one day and then $30 million the next. They could never make that money back, but the idea that was sold to Wall Street by these companies was, “Hey, it’s a captive audience. They have to listen to the radio.” Which we all know now isn’t true. After deregulation, radio became just another business to the new station ownership across the country. Everything became homogenized. I remember reading about how these companies were strategizing and justifying their purchases and thinking that it was all propaganda, some kind of Ponzi scheme or even the Greater Fool theory. You know, someone out there will always pay more for something you already paid too much for? (laughs)

Companies like Clear Channel then started thinking they could control popular culture. They started buying up concert promoters, installed a legal payola system and exerted amazing control. It was [The Outer Limits] “We will control all that you see and hear.” The thing about popular culture is, you cannot force feed it or create it. Not everything we played at WMMS became a hit; there were just as many that didn’t. But you never know until you try. It’s the court of public opinion. Clear Channel thought they’d control everything, but you’re starting to see signs to the opposite in the statistics and their finances. The years of controlling play lists has not been about playing music based on its merit; it’s been as much about keeping other people’s off. By 2000, radio really had nothing in common with popular taste. And now look at it. There’s no correlation at all with what people want to hear and what’s being played. The time will come when a whole generation will not see a benefit, or have an interest, in radio.

And to that end, I’m sure you get a lot of people asking you what will change radio back… but given that last question; it’s really never going happen is it?

What I like is when someone says something can’t happen. It’s all the more reason why it can and should. In the 80s, WMMS peaked and people said, “You can’t get any larger than this.” And we said “Oh, yeah?” Now Clear Channel is trying to go private, which should be tied up in the courts for a while. CBS stock is falling for a while and has been unofficially floated by the TV network, but the radio division is not doing well. Citadel is drowning in debt. People are listening to radio listening for fewer hours, and fewer times a day. Ratings and ad sales are based on the time spent listening. A commercial entity has to instill confidence if you’re supposed to be buying advertising from them, but with a 10th of a point separating all of them in the ratings it means that no one has a favorite station. Everyone's just (motions repetitive pointing with finger) flipping from station to station.

I remember talking with Carl Hirsch, the president of Malrite [Communications] when I worked there. He was one of the owners of OmniAmerica. So before I knew what happened, I was back at WMMS. He asked me if I could bring the station back. It was a difficult question, but that night I went back home and started thinking about it and happened to be watching “Star Trek: the Next Generation.” All of the sudden, it hit me. “That’s it. We’ll go back to the original style of ‘MMS, and we’ll get a new staff.” As it was, there was WNCX playing a better history of ‘MMS than we ever could… and I was thinking about [Cleveland] as where rock and roll radio started, and where personality radio started. The people were as big as the artists they were playing back then. So we kept a couple of the elder statesmen, brought in Brian and Joe in the morning, and Lou Santini, Jennifer Wylde, Spaceman Scott. We blew the whole thing up, rebuilt it, and started calling it “Buzzard Radio: The Next Generation.” We were #1 in the 18-34 demographic within a year, which is what we wanted.

When prices come back down, the real broadcasters will have opportunity to get back in the game. The successful people in a terrestrial radio revival are going to be the ones who understand [the medium] and get that a true marriage of old media and new media will make it successful.

On your blog – which is always a fascinating read, by the way – you describe yourself as a Consultant and Talent Coach. Can you talk about what that entails?

I was a radio consultant and I still am. That’s still part of what’s on the shingle. When you have a limited few independently own stations left, my market as far as radio is concerned, is definitely shrinking. So I’ve opened up to media in general. Some of it is talent coaching. A lot of creative talent on TV and radio, the way things are structured, there’s just not time to work with them the way that program directors used to…the way old media is structured today – and I hate using that word but it’s right -- those who are in charge are not spending time developing new talent.

Blogging is interesting. People [running blogs] are having nervous breakdowns and heart attacks at 50 just trying to keep up in the 24-hour media business. When blogs started, the content was better; now places like Gawker and the New York Times are… whipping their people to do more content instead of better content. We’re all reading more stories with less depth, more gossip, and less news. And there’s the “new media trap,” where they want to go out of [their] way to beat old media. You still want to have good content, it’s the key to any success – compelling content is what holds people. Like the recording industry, there has been a focus lost on content and a lot of it has just become tonnage.

I can only assume that you read the Wired January 2008 stories that David Byrne of the Talking Heads wrote – one on the state of the recording industry and the other an interview of Thom Yorke of Radiohead. Isn’t the RIAA as culpable in strangling the music industry as radio deregulation is?

Yes. The same thing that happened to radio happened to the recording industry as a whole. It’s just that, in radio’s case, it took a change in federal law because the population, the citizens own the stations. Which is nice in theory, but it doesn’t work like that anymore. In the old days, we had to [prove] we were serving our community. The more you do that, the more people will listen in larger amounts.

When the labels started merging several years ago, they began signing artists with music as an afterthought. Just like everything else, as it started shrinking down to the now four major companies, it was all about business. Everyone cut the corners, wanted to go for tonnage and in the process, the record stores that built the industry were abandoned for Best Buy. Those stores bought in such bulk that they could sell cheaper than My Generation, which used to be open down the street. When it came time to Best Buy to “pay the bill,” so to speak – pay for the tonnage they were selling – they said “Well, I guess you’re gonna have to cut us off.” Where else were they going to sell the music? And from there, it was a lot of each side leading each other on.

That is what changed the biz. Corners started getting cut. A&R became a joke. And it was better, in management’s mind, to have a Britney Spears on the roster sell ten million records instead of ten artists selling a million each. Then add to that the fact that these companies are public, with quarterly reports on revenues. Labels had to increase price because they were losing their ass. So the price of a new CD is almost as much than buying a new DVD now. Add the fact that labels initially resisted the downloading phenomenon and you begin to see the big picture. All that said, indie labels aren’t losing, they’re doing great. And indie record stores are still doing pretty well, too. But one day, all record stores are going to be obsolete. They nearly are now.

OK. Lightning round. Tell me the first thing you think of when I offer up… illegal downloading.

The piracy thing is overblown. Anyone can steal music. With these Bit Torrent sites you can download anything. It again comes down to quality. With most sites you’re getting a very compressed copy. In some ways, illegal downloading has replaced the spirit of radio. Most people like a clean copy with artwork, and they don’t want a bootleg. Bootleg quality [recordings] can be fatiguing to listen to.

Terrestrial radio.

Terrestrial radio can be saved, but it depends on how well the old media can work with new media. There’s still an average of four radios in each household, and one per car. Successful terrestrial radio will marry wireless Internet in cars, which will mean you’ll get Internet radio from all over the place as you drive. A lot of people will still will be able to listen to a hometown station, regardless of where they live or visit and keep up with the culture of their city. It will be more than just putting your signal online. There’s tremendous money to be made with that old media marrying the new. If that doesn’t happen… worst case scenario, Clear Channel goes private, things get worse and worse … and soon, the under 35 radio demographic sees the medium as completely irrelevant.

But there’s more to it than all of that. WMMS was the champion because we had great competition. We hit the “nerve endings” for people, we didn’t just want to reach them, we wanted to make an impact. If radio could get back to that level of quality, the sky really is the limit.

The HD Radio phenomenon.

HD radio is a scam, a total Ponzi scheme. Why would you want a radio where you are getting an additional couple of stations from the corporation that already screwed up your original radio? There are so few extra stations that are any good. A Ponzi scheme.

College radio.

College radio still remains a major source for hearing new music. And a variety of music that you’ll never ever hear on commercial radio. I still like a lot of it.

How about satellite radio?

(Sighs). Well, satellite radio is interesting. They just eliminated their competition with the XM/Sirius merger. When terrestrial radio eliminated its competition, the quality went with it. I think because satellite radio does not have competition, it stands to reason that there will be a lowering of the quality. I have mixed feelings. If someone can present me an example of lack of competition making a better product, show me.

When they merge, they’ll want to keep all their subscribers, attract a new audience and improve the bottom line. So they’ll tinker with the playlists. If they go too obscure, it will drive people away, but if they tighten it up too much, people will listen less because it will be too familiar. When you listen to them separately now, you can feel that they’re each coming from one place – one culture, one location. That will continue to intermingle as the merger shakes out. Everything will then be coming out of one culture.

Well, but Internet radio in a tough spot, too. Isn’t it? Too few listeners, the Internet Radio Equality Act, government involvement and hearings and RIAA fining people for sharing music. One more case of, if radio isn’t killing itself, the recording industry surely is.

The Internet radio out there is the future of at-work listening. What I like about Internet radio so much of it is stand alone, coming out of people’s homes, but very independent and coming from a bunch of different places. It’s growing much faster than any other medium now… The DMCA [Digital Millennium Copyright Act] has made things difficult… royalties shouldn’t be paid to an artist; the artist should be compensated from sales. With the DMCA, it was allowed to pass because the National Association of Broadcasters was so busy fighting satellite radio, it hurt their ability to develop Internet radio properly. If you read the law, it looks like it was written by Joseph Stalin. It will cause some co-opting, pay for play and all, because it makes independent Internet radio too expensive to broadcast. DMCA made it rough for the ones who really don’t want to have to compromise.

What are you listening to these days?

Musically, I think there’s so much good new music that has come out over the last few years. Internet radio has turned me on to a lot. I’m into any one little bit of everything – Triple A [adult alternative], rock, lounge, chillout music. My personal taste is pretty broad. Smokin’ oldies… the Arcade Fire, that band is just phenomenal. And Amy Winehouse, she is another one. She cleans up in the Grammys, but you can’t hear her on the radio the next day! (laughs). I like her; I hope she overcomes her demons.

What can people expect at your Rock Hall forum next week?

I'm sure we'll be talking a lot about the book. I hope that we get into the younger people talking about the marketing end a bit, and talking about protecting the artistic values. Jim Henke is a great interviewer. I’m sure it will be a very interesting hour and a half. I am sure a lot of people will have questions about WMMS, how did we "get away with it," how the Murray Saul Getdowns just happened. And I’ll talk about how radio is so out of touch with popular culture.

It’s reached a point now where what’s being played on the radio isn’t a soundtrack to life anymore. Most people are being turned on [to new music] by friends, college, satellite, internet and that’s the new soundtrack to popular culture. [Radio] may come back. WAPS 91.3-FM “The Summit” has that spirit. CIDR 93.7-FM “The River” in Windsor, Ontario is another one. But the only stations doing better in the last ten years are NPR stations. I remember hearing the line, “The masses are asses,” in regards to the deregulation of terrestrial radio... from the corporate end of things.

While that may be true, they also know when they’re getting kicked.

From Cool Cleveland Managing Editor Peter Chakerian peterATcoolcleveland.com

Photo by Anastasia Pantsios

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